The Inevitable “Meh” of Warhammer Online
Hi, I’m Daedren. You might remember me from other articles like “Squig Vicious: When Herding Goes Wrong” and “Fatality: My Age of Conan DVD in the Microwave.” I know, I know - it’s hard to write something where you know you’re going to alienate or piss off a good portion of your readers with just the title, but it’s just how I feel. To summarize, my thoughts are basically this: Warhammer Online is a mediocre remake of everything we’ve already seen in the industry. It lacks passion, it lacks real creativity, and at the end of the day, it doesn’t provide a unique or memorable experience. Or yeah, something like that.
The first few weeks after an MMO comes out are always bustling with activity. People just can’t seem to shut up about a game. I suppose it’s all about that new and exciting feeling, the same sort of feeling you get when you’re waiting for your test results back from the lab after hooking up with the tattooed girl at work. I can honestly say I really wanted to like Warhammer. That said, I don’t. Just a warning: there will be an immense string of negativity hurled Mythic’s way in this rant of an article. These are my personal thoughts on the game, and how I feel about it. Some will agree with me. Many will not. Keep this in mind before you get all stabby with the comments.
Warhammer Online, on paper, seems to be a good, solid game. On paper, it’s a nicely designed game that at least tries to take some baby steps to advance our MMO industry. On paper, it’s not so bad. Unfortunately we don’t play the game on paper, so let’s focus on one thing: why does Warhammer make me say “meh?”
The “MEH”
What the hell does “meh” mean anyway? Well, to me, it’s this feeling of “blah” or apathy that can roughly be summarized as not caring too much about whatever it is you’re talking about. For example: “How do you feel today?” - The “meh” answer here would portray a sense of uncaring blandness that isn’t quite good, and isn’t quite bad. Upon further questioning, the purported sayer of “meh” will be somewhat uncertain of the exact cause of this: they can’t pinpoint something that is outright bad, but they know something is amiss.
That’s my feeling towards Warhammer Online. The inevitable “meh.” I can’t get worked up to actually care about fighting Faction X because I’m Faction Z. I feel distanced from my character in game because it feels like I’ve been there before. I don’t feel for the Elf or Empire or Dwarf cause. I don’t care that Chaos people and Greenskins go burning virtual buildings and killing NPC’s or players that magically respawn back into existence. And quite frankly, I’ve done enough “Ten Kill Rats”, “Talk to Joe” and “Collect Item X” quests in my life to never see one again and be happy.
I just don’t care about playing. Some people might say “Daedren you need a guild!” - well, I have a guild. A damn fine one at that. Never a shortage of people to do things with. Sadly, my guild can’t make the game fun to play. They can’t take that apathetic feeling away that makes it feel like a chore just to log in and progress. I just can’t convince myself that the game is fun enough to spend my time playing. Perhaps I’m getting picky, but I really just think the game is “meh”. Unchallenging, uninspiring, and lacking passion. They’ve solidified an already existing game dynamic, adding a few bells and whistles, and expect people to spend a good portion of their free time in their unoriginal cookie cutter world. I just can’t do it.
Playing Bad Guys, Factional Combat and RVR
A few months ago, when people started saying that Destruction to have the most people playing it, I had my own ideas why. Mainly it’s because I thought that most people playing Destruction would be some emo/goth hybrid, torn between listening to death metal or Evanescence whilst painting teardrops on the corners of their eyes or writing poetry about how the world doesn’t understand them. Now, though, I understand that it’s really because Mythic spent about 75% of their development time working on Destruction classes and areas. Thanks to that, we now have everyone and their kitten running around playing naked Witch Elves or hulking Greenskins. They’ve gone and made being bad popular, and what does that mean?
From a design perspective, Mythic has allowed players to play a bad or “evil” faction. The problem here is that they allow players to play the role of an evil-doer, yet infer no material or moral consequence for their actions. Universally, there is nearly no difference in playing Order or Destruction other than some weakly implied moral bias. Every player knows that you don’t really kill another player in RvR - as they are magically reappearing seconds later because of the joke of a death system - but the real problem is that deep down, players know that they can never really win. You can’t vanquish evil, you can’t slaughter the forces of good - all you can do is work at inconveniencing them for a couple minutes. It’s a never ending game with no side being able to actually win or claim a real victory, so it blends into a meaningless label of Good/Evil or Order/Destruction with a lack of substance behind any faction or player.
It’s depressing from a player perspective: no matter what you do in the game, you cannot change anything. Sure, burn Altdorf down. It resets in a week or whatever. The Order players are still there. You can never get rid of them. You can maybe evict them and their stupid Keep Lords from their temporary residences, but they’ll be back. They have places to go where you can’t, making the Warhammer Online universe no more than a staged battlefield, a Valhalla of sorts, where nothing can ever really change.
Factional WAR
This subject has the potential to be the most disturbing and controversial subject of them all. Warhammer isn’t the first to implement it, though, but they do use it as the main selling point of their game. RVR combat - Order vs. Destruction. Or, as I like to call it, Spock vs. Evil Spock. You know, with the goatee.
I don’t subscribe to the “It’s WAR! Kill them!” pamphlet that makes me a robot soldier in an army killing an opposing robot soldier for Generic Reason X. This sort of mentality is exactly what is wrong with the world - killing other “people” because they are a certain race or faction. Are there no Goblins in the Warhammer world that are happy growing food and tending their squigs? No Dwarves or Humans that would betray their faction for the right price? No Dark Elves that are born with purple eyes and happen to be morally at war with everything their people does? Oh, if only life were this black and white. They’ve eliminated any sense of a “grey area” and have overly simplified objective right and wrong. The fact that Orks and Dark Elves can’t kill each other is almost as laughable as Elves and Dwarves fighting alongside each other. So much for embracing game lore.
So, basically all we are in Warhammer are Battle Droids. The leaders tell us what to shoot, and we shoot it, no questions asked. Or maybe we’re Stormtroopers. Who knows. Either way, we seem to be stuck in the role of “Don’t think, we’ll do that for you” to the supreme Warhammer overlords. It sounds like a mentality that a typical government would love for it’s people to have: unquestioning and unthinking. Sign me up for the war, sir.
Preventing this is something very hard to do from a design perspective. It definitely makes things harder, throwing grey into the world. Perhaps people like the ease of determining good vs. evil - perhaps the fact that it doesn’t mirror reality is what makes it comfortable - it is, after all, fantasy. I’ll admit that the thought of a real and visceral evil is a bit romantic and provokes thoughts of real heroism and chivalry. Warhammer hasn’t captured that in any sense, though, at least to me.
Whatever happened to Heroes?
Another stream of logic that Mythic has embraced is downplaying of your character in the game. They aren’t alone in this aspect: the only MMO to really capture the true “Hero” aspect is probably City of Heroes/Villians. However, they’ve taken the high-fantasy world of Warhammer and allowed players to make characters in this world. These characters are not heroes. They’re more like errand boys and shock troops. At most you could be considered a red shirt wearing Ensign of Star Trek. Go, zerg that keep like the good minion you are. Us heroes will be safely waiting here in the Warcamp as you do our bidding.
The real heroes of this game are the Keep Lords and the terribly powerful guards you see standing around. The insane power of these guys make you wonder why they don’t get on a damn horse and try to go mobile. Hell, half of the guards at a Tier 4 Warcamp could probably take the opposing faction city with little problem. And here we are, the players, running around delivering notes to them and letting them direct us. We’re their minions. Whatever happened to making a player feel like they are a hero? Why can’t we have minions and troops to command? Where are the armies that we can direct and lead? The reason that D&D and Warhammer tabletop games were popular is because the story revolved around the players; they could noticeably affect and change the world based on their decisions. This main aspect and magic of the game is lost in a sea of inane, repetitive and fun killing “Quests”. Yay, fun!
Creative Vision
I suppose what Mythic really missed here was the Creative Vision. Now, that’s not to say there is nothing creative in Warhammer Online: we have nifty things like Public Quests, an advanced RvR system, flags and statues in cities, nifty little easter eggs floating around, etc. In the big picture, though, it’s all small beans. All the repetitive “content” will be explored and done. People will hit max level and RvR for a while. Keeps will be captured and Capital Cities captured, ad infinitum, like some sort of pointless tug-of-war. As sad as it is to say it, Warhammer just doesn’t have that “epic” feel to it. Polishing brass on the Titanic is more like it.
It’s clear that Warhammer Online was designed with World of Warcraft as its working business model - and this is probably the biggest weakness of the game. I can understand the logic of “Hey, let’s make WoW - but with an actual PVP and RVR system!” - yet it’s failing to do anything for me. The good thing about WoW was that it was new and exciting at the time, even if it was just a rehash of Everquest and DAoC with a bigger development budget. WoW was a logical evolution in the MMO industry, and it helped mainstream MMO’s and brought in a boatload of new people from outside the industry. And now, it’s all about the three step process to mediocrity:
- Use WoW as a business model
- Make a game almost exactly like WoW but improve it a little bit and make it a bit different
- Try and profit
Yay, recycling is fun! Ok, it’s not that the game won’t make profit. Sure, I suppose it will. It sold enough, has enough “content”, and its got enough raving fanbois to keep a healthy population for a long time. Then we’ll have Vanguard and Age of Conan on one side, and LOTRO and Warhammer on another.
4 Games. Over 250 Million USD in production costs. And almost absolutely nothing new to the MMO industry.
What about the end game of Warhammer Online? I haven’t experienced it yet, that’s true enough. Not many people have. The end game is all about RVR. Keep Takes. City Sieges. Renown Grinding. People always need to have the best stuff. What’s the best way to get to RR 80? Why, it’s playing the same scenario, over and over again. Think of Warsong Gulch 75,000 times. So, the majority of my end game will be grinding up to max RR level, with sparse breaks for actual open world PVP and keep takes? Thanks but no thanks. As always, it’ll come down to the time = currency formula in MMO’s, though I suppose it was silly to try and think that would change anyway.
Burnout
I’ve been told by a few friends of mine that my disillusion with the game is probably due to MMO burnout, and I agree. I stopped playing WoW a year ago. Tried EVE, wanted to love it, but couldn’t. Age of Conan was a disaster. Warhammer was supposed to shake things up, but I got bored of Warhammer quicker than AoC, which isn’t how it should be. Warhammer, on paper, sounds like it should be great game for an old-school PVP hound like I am, but in execution it leaves me overwhelmingly dissatisfied.
Maybe it’s just age. I’ve felt more drawn to games like King’s Bounty and even replaying Bioshock than grinding yet another character up to max level in MMO “X”. For some good PVP I’m apt to go play Team Fortress 2, DOTA or Call of Duty 4. Perhaps the appeal of PVP in a MMORPG has just worn off. I’ve yet to see any MMO implement a system where actual skill mattered in a PVP fight - it usually just comes down to who has the most time to play or who has the most people to roll with them. This thought especially weighs down upcoming releases like Darkfall which not only embraces the “shoot me in the head it’s another high fantasy MMO” aspect but also seem to have a PVP formula similar to Shadowbane and Age of Conan.
I’ve often wondered how the MMO industry can recapture the minds and hearts of MMO veterans like myself. A good portion of the player base started off with Ultima Online or Everquest - meaning that it’s safe to say we’ve seen and done nearly everything Warhammer has to offer, albeit in a different light. The magic, we wants it back. The draw to the genre was that it was massive and new. It felt like things were created with heart and passion, not based on a working business model. I suppose it’ll take another company or another game to really break out of the mold to get a lot of the old players back.
So that’s it, folks. Warhammer has failed to impress me. I’m not the only one to have this happen, but on the other side, there are plenty of people enjoying the game still. Anyone else feel unimpressed and unmotivated to play? Do tell.
Hi Daed, good article as usual. I’ve been playing War off and on lately, but I’ll admit it’s been hard to get motivated sometimes. I’ve heard from others that Tier 2 / Tier 3 can be a bit like that and it gets fun again in Tier 4. Who knows.
I’m playing Destruction though. I tried to play Order, got bored to death. Maybe you should have tried the emo kids out! =) It’s not so bad over here.
Oh, wonderful Daniel. Now I don’t feel like playing. Thanks alot!
From the initial start the way you describe to have a lack of interest in gameplay mechanics used in basically every mmorpg in existance. Your review of this game could fit any game on the market past present and future.
Yes, gameplay ideas and mechanics get copied over the years. How many completely original games come out that use no prior mechanics of the past? Noone’s making rectangular tires for cars.
The market is for all kinds of people, including those who are new to a genre and for the most part developers feel no reason to waste time reinvisioning conventions that already work well.
The fact that you have such a problem with these mechanics makes me beleive you won’t be happy with any offering and this piece should have been addressed to the genre not the game. I’m sure that addresing it to a new popular game though would net you more visitors since it’s a seemingly fresh approach to an age old argument made thousands of times before.
@Unicorns_Pwn: I agree, and that’s why I’ve came with the conclusion that this is probably related to MMO burnout. That doesn’t excuse Mythic, though, in my opinion. It’s not like they owe me or the industry anything, I suppose, but it is at least the reason I won’t be paying them. Sure, I’m only one guy in the sea of millions of potential geeks, but I’m still intitled to my opinion - which, of course, is only what this is.
If you read some of my old articles, I do address these concerns to the genre in whole. Also, I’m not worried about “netting” more visitors, though I understand what you’re saying. I disagree, though - generalizing this makes it just a gripe about MMO’s on a whole, which people quickly glance over as rambling bullshit and move on with their day.
Addressing it directly to Warhammer helps people relate to what I’m saying and gives them a reason to read it because I’m talking about the game their playing. I agree most of the stuff could be applied to every other MMO, however.
Anyway, thanks for the comment.
Np, And I really mean no disrespect. I can be a real ass around this site and I undertand your complaints but as we seem to agree this is a braoder problem in general.
In all reality though, there are plenty of criticisms but no real suggestions made to fix the problem. We can all sit here and state blanket vague features and terms, but no way to implement them into a fun and viable means to make money.
I’ve been playing MMO’s since Asherons Call released on and off. For WAR i knew up front what the game was about. The decelopers were so open they did all they could cept maybe show you the source code. Knowing that I took a good long break from the genre. Although I am met with alot of the same mechanics I am treated to better, more freqent and at this point more balanced combat against real players and for me at this point still warrants a play.
@Unicorns_Pwn: I disagree there are no suggestions made to fix the problem. Any company or producer I ever present my ideas to tell me the same thing: ideas are a dime a dozen. It’s not that the devs don’t *want* to revolutionize the industry, it’s just they are usually led by corporate lap dogs who are shaping the game to be something corporate clowns want and not gamers. Hence using the same business model, slightly modified.
Anyway, my heart has never been 100% into dedicating my life to revoultionize the industry. I’m just hoping someone else out there has been. When scrubs like me can come up with ways to do it, but without the means, I can only image what some of the industry greats think of on a day to day basis.
Well, I think I should elaborate some. I shouldn’t state that ideas aren’t brought up, but alot of times it seems like the ones that do currently don’t always seem to fit the market and how they would like to make money.
Sure the corporate world may be a bunch of clowns and in most cases I do agree. At the same time realize that someone has to go to these clowns and make a pitch for a large sum of money, on an unproven set of design ideals for a video game.
We are short of genuine world shakers in the industry, but we’ve also seen plenty of more radical and inventive ideas die either on the vine or shortly after birth. Corporate clowns do talk from time to time and move around as well. This kinda falls under the fool me once… kinda mentality.
It’s not mmo related but look at what happened to Clover Studios.
“no matter what you do in the game, you cannot change anything.”
This is the one downfall of (save for one that comes to mind) every MMO out there. Honestly, if this is an issue you have, then MMOs are not right for you because they never end. No one stays dead.
“No Dwarves or Humans that would betray their faction for the right price?”
Actually, this does show up in the quests. I did one just last night on my HE where I went out to find some captured kins, discovered that not only the kins, but the DEs that captured them, had been killed but left no bodies, and continued on to discover that a Human (Order) NPC had been delving in death magic. The HE quest giver, upon turning it in, voiced serious concern about maintaining an alliance with Humans who would practice and kill with such magic. So it is there, just not enough to make it feel like the world is inundated with gray areas.
“I’ll admit that the thought of a real and visceral evil is a bit romantic and provokes thoughts of real heroism and chivalry. Warhammer hasn’t captured that in any sense, though, at least to me.”
Because there isn’t as much here. It isn’t really good vs. evil, it’s evil beating the crap outta good and good is desperately trying to stay alive… sometimes at any cost. Honestly I was put off by this at first, but as you level up, the quests help you realize that there’s more to just surviving as a good guy.
“It’s clear that Warhammer Online was designed with World of Warcraft as its working business model.”
Funny how you ignore several major and inventive additions to the MMO genre (PQs, tome, etc.) and jump into the “let’s beat this dead horse!” bandwagon. While I sympathized with you for most of your article (I too suffer sometimes from a “meh” feeling while playing WAR, but for different reasons), I can’t now. You look at WAR, expected something completely different from what hundreds of interviews and websites have been talking about, and then feel annoyed that it didn’t provide you with fantasies of what YOU wanted the game to be. Boohoo. They set out to make a great game and used DAoC as their model. Gasp. A company using their own game, which predated WoW, as a model. And it’s not perfect, but there are some really great things going on below the “kill X” quests and doing *gasps* RvR with no real end in sight. You’d just rather the game spoon feed things to you without actually reading quests and trying to understand what the game IS.
@streea: Addressing your last paragraph:
PQ’s and Tome are small beans in my mind. Sure, they’re a bit creative (and I specifically mentioned PQ’s) but it still doesn’t change that the core of the game we’re still doing pretty much the exact same thing we did 10 years ago in Everquest.
I didn’t expect anything different. I was quite aware of what Warhammer was doing: they knew this was a WoW clone from the start. Except you say…
“They set out to make a great game”
And how great is a game where a good deal of veteran MMOers are put off because of the model it used? I argue that they didn’t want to make a great game, they wanted to make a passable game that makes a profit. They weren’t trying to revolutionize the industry, and they sure as hell didn’t - but they did make a passable albeit not great game, at least for me.
As for you saying that I want a game to spoonfeed me things, I think that’s pretty much the opposite of every want or desire I’d have in a MMO. These “things” you talk about being more than “Kill Ten X” or doing RvR, I’d like to hear about them. Please don’t say tome unlocking. Please don’t say redoing or reexploring “content”. Please, for the love of all that’s holy, don’t even bring up roleplaying in this game (it doesn’t really exist).
Gaming is an entertainment industry. We get to watch PC Gaming and Console gaming evolve and come out with brave new ideas like Spore, Bioshock, World of Goo, GTA - where in the MMO genre we’re stuck autoattacking or spamming the same couple buttons to kill an insane amount of the same thing. It’s an exercise in tolerated hamster wheel running is what it is.
Anyway, thanks for your comment, it was thoughtful. You probably know me well enough to know that I like criticisms on what I write.
@Unicorns_Pwn: I agree we’re short of world shakers in the industry. I’ll even give Richard Garriott at attempting to shake the world, albeit failing quite miserably at doing so.
As many will agree, the MMOG industry is in it’s infancy. The biggest problem in my mind now is it’s inability to evolve outside the current working model which closely resembles WoW.
Woe to the world where we’re playing WoW clones for eternity. Surely humans can do better than this, no? I would hope so.
Anyway, I’ve pitched my ideas, no one would bite. Perhaps if I was younger and without a family I’d take off to the horizon with the intent to change the gaming world. I’ve not a doubt I could do it. Alas, unless something changes, we’ll have to wait for another world shaker to come along.
streea, I’d also like to know what you consider the deeper or more fulfilling part of the game. I feel like Daedren in regards to the repetitive or uncreative nature of the tasks in the game. Sure, grabbing a stolen box might not technically be “kill ten rats” - but since you have to kill 10 rats to get to the box, it’s really just the same thing.
PQ’s were fun at the start but in Tier 2-3 they’ve become a chore to get people to do. They also have limited replayability since it seems you get the same loot item in the bags every time, depending on the bag color. Oh, and the PQ’s are really just “Kill 100 Rats, Collect 10 Boxes” and then “Kill 10 super rats, collect 3 other boxes” and finally “Kill one boss rat and some henchmen”. I haven’t found one PQ that didn’t follow this formula. I know it’s war and all, but it’d be nice to do something in the game that doesn’t involve mass genocide of something.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
Spore wasn’t really original but a dumbed down extension of previous games. Alot of people are kinda turned off by the game actually.
Bioshock was still basically a lil more intelligent fps
world of goo I will give you credit for but there are tons of small indie devs out there like cactus etc th inking outside the box.
All games require a certain amount of repitition. And all games you’ve cited will contain elements of repetition to. It’s up to the end user to decide what aspects of the core gameplay and lore they focus on to determine if the repetitive nature is acceptable.
@Unicorns_Pwn: I agree with Spore not being a spectacular game in execution, but it did have some good ideas. Some call it Black and White 2, whatever - if the entire game would have had the fun factor or depth of the Creature and Space stages, it would have been an epic game. That’s the general consensus.
Bioshock was a wonderfully imaginative game in terms of storyline. Yeah, it’s an FPS, but it’s almost universally agreed that it’s one of the most intelligent and taking stories told in games in recent years. The fact that it’s Steampunkish makes it even sweeter.
Anyway, I’m sure there are tons of innovative and more creative games out for console and PC that I’m not even aware of. My point is that we have a good deal of choice and variety here and the industry seems to be evolving. However, in MMOG’s, we are almost regressing in terms of market evolution. Companies are so busy bickering over the scraps from Blizzard’s table, they forgot what it means to be creative and to have ingenuity.
Ah well. Let us agree that the gaming world would be a better place if someone had the courage to evolve it.
That’s also part of the problem. Spore wasn’t a large success nor that original. It was a small evolution from his past works and sadly all the prior mechanics were dumbed down.
Setting and story were a bit imaginitive in Bioshock, but again I’ve been p[laying FPS since wolfentstein 3D and frankly the whole thing bores me except maybe Left 4 Dead.
The last point you make I want to argue against but only half heartedly. While to some degree I do feel it is regressing, I think there is a biger part to the whole. Alot of older gamers and some veterans won’t the old feelings they had but at the same time no longer have the time commitment to actually do so. In an attempt they try and highlight the good and make it more accessible. It really doesn’t matter they could have made it longer grinds and more original and more world shaping and guess what? Someone would say it sucked cause they had a job and by the time they got home the town was burned down, they lost all their belongings and felt they were too late to impact the world.
damned if you do damned if you don’t. It’s not so much an excuse as it is the reality that some people just don’t want to come to grips with. Being married now, buying a house and running a company gaming isn’t the highest priority on my list. I do want to game though and many MO style games with their progression and time requirements cannot be played by me. That design is at least a loss in my situation. WAR at least gives me a chance to play and make a difference at nearly all levels of play and If I play well I see results.
if you want an earth shaker look up Love by Eskil Steenberg
http://www.quelsolaar.com/love/index.html
Annnnnnnd.
Fail.
Go back to WoW kid.
I feel the same way about most MMO’s nowadays. I get frustrated by all of the repetition and quest grinding. But the RvR and exp gains from killing PC’s in this game is something that has been missing from mainstream MMO’s. The potential of what WAR can become is exciting and to be honest it is so much better than WoW because the game is a whole and not subdivided into PVP, PVE, Arena and questing. It all comes together nicely. AoC was the biggest disappointment in the history of MMO’s so maybe I’m abit optimistic about WAR.
I’m like you in the fact that 10 years ago I could do the same things in EQ that we STILL do in any MMO. WAR may not be great but as of right now its the best MMO out for fun factor and hopefully they can expand on their jumps in the innovation department. But for a game that truly revolutionizes this genre I think we just need to wait on holograms like in the Star Trek movies because I think right now we are a point in diminishing returns in the gaming industry as a whole.
Spot on. Especially the portion about Dark Elves/Orcs and Dwarfs/High Elves not being able to kill each other. Great article and the truth about WAR. SO many people thought it would be the “holy grail” of MMORPG’s. Not so, not so.
Looking into the future, the only MMO I see that may buck the trend will be the Star Trek Online game by Cryptic, though the ‘hero feel’ game will be getting another offering by Cryptic’s Champions Online and Sony’s DC Universe Online games.
Everything else coming out follows the same model: Stargate looks to be a three-way fight instead of two way, which might be better. We have the rumored Knights of the Old Republic which has Bioware behind it, but it will also probably one on one faction fighting too.
Why Warhammer did not go with the multiple factions of the miniature war game or fantasy game is beyond me. Dark Elves, Orcs, and Chaos are to be fighting one another, as well as against Humans, Elves, and Dwarves (and vice versa). A six way chaotic mess would have been more interesting than one vs one…we have that in all the other games already.
Nothing new here. Your burned.
However, get one thing straight. Left 4 Dead = epic omg cant wait
Just sayin…
This is a great article. I always tell friends that say they’re burnt out on MMOs to take a break. On the other hand, if they tell me they just don’t care what happens to their character anymore, I tell them to quit the game and never look back.
Make me care about my character. That’s all I ask.
I don’t need to be the supreme god/commander of all life. I don’t need to be revered or respected, feared or loved. All I need to do is care about my character. The only way to do this is to give me a world and let me create it in what way I choose.
If I want to be a mercenary until I gain the income to buy a farm and settle down - fantastic! If I want to BE the king - great! Anything in between - go for it! I just want the choices to make my character interesting and meaningful to me, a time-warped mirror image of me as I would want to be if I had no limitations other than the ones I place on myself in a virtual space. Where’s the MMO that will do that?
Great article. Thanks.
Great article. I feel the same way about not feeling like a hero in MMOs. One of the reasons to play games (in my opinion) is to escape the world where you are just an average joe and enter a world where you can fill like a hero, king or whatever.
Once again I have spent another month in a MMO that leaves me wanting more. Honestly games like WAR have me going back to FPS just because if I want unorganized instant PvP action I might was well be playing Crysis War or COD:4.
It’s funny I played WAR to escape my daily cubical drone life only to have some 10 year old yelling at me in game because I am not playing the game to his liking. When I play single player games no one yells at me. I can feel like I am the one in charge and in control of the world.
I like the social aspect of MMOs but honestly that same social aspect is a huge downside for the very reason I play games, escapism.
Honestly though I don’t know what a solution would be or how a game could fix your character so they can actually feel heroic. I guess one way is to make PVE so trivial that you one shot everything, of course where is the fun in that?
The thing I would love to see though is a true sandbox. No set factions, no quest, just an open world that the players can actually build from the ground up.
Imagine hundreds of players agreeing to build a city. There wouldn’t be any NPCs only PCs to actually build the buildings and other PCs to gather resources and still others to protect the other two groups while the city is built.
No default factions or realms. The only rule to the game is to do your best to build your own place in it and to survive.
That to me would be the ultimate MMO.
Until then I guess I will just keep playing games like King’s Bounty and Crysis War.
@Lucid: Your website is the online personification of what I thought a Destruction player would look like.
Glad you had time to post a comment in between softly moaning to yourself or checking out the latest emo/punk/goth/rock shit.
@KingJames: I agree that advancement via PVP is a needed step in the evolution of MMO’s. I’ve praised Mythic for that in my previous couple Warhammer pieces.
However, what really offsets this is the fact that you progress mainly through instanced PVP (Scenarios) instead of Open World RVR, which is the opposite of the “Design Vision” that Mythic at least said it had. Paul and Mark both mentioned many times that this wouldn’t be the case - but oops, here we are.
I’m all for Star Trek holograms. Man, would anyone ever leave one if they existed?
[...] So, a popular blogger finally does the inevitable — comes down on WAR pretty hard, calling it “meh”. [...]
I totally agree about bioshock
its execution, quality and story was the one of a great game.
[...] “Meh” to Warhammer Published October 8, 2008 Games , MMO , Warhammer Daedren at r1ft Gaming’s take on Warhammer: To summarize, my thoughts are basically this: Warhammer Online is a mediocre remake of everything [...]
@David West: I agree completely. I’m no Warhammer-lore expert, but from what I understand, Humans and Dwarves have the only “real” alliance between any of the 6 Races, with Humans and Elves having something a bit looser. I’ve heard that Dwarves and Elves are at war and openly fight each other. As for Chaos and Elves and Greenskins, I’ve heard some people say the fact they don’t kill each other on site is pretty much a spit in the face of the game lore.
Bah, who knows. Not many play the game for the lore anyway, right?
And, in regards to the future: Left 4 Dead sounds fun (as AtrumEdge points out) and as far as real “MMO’s” — well, I don’t know. Maybe Red 5, maybe 38 Studios. At least Star Trek, Stargate, Champions and KOTR will bring some non-fantasy into the MMO gaming world.
@Jwilson: I think that’s what a lot of people miss about Ultima Online. You really could be a trader / farmer for a living. You could buy a house, tend a garden, and make stuff. You’d probably get murdered a few times a day, but hey, UO was a rough world.
The closest any game has come to that is EVE Online. I tried, but I couldn’t get into EVE, and I’m a huge Sci-Fi buff. Perhaps if they included a “Star Control 2″ sort of planetary exploring system I’d be hooked. Hell, if any game did that, I’d probably be hooked.
I’m enjoying WAR, but the funny thing is, if some merciful, affluent game developer took all your complaints about what WAR is lacking and incorporated them into an imaginative MMORPG, it would be the greatest game ever. Right now with MMORPGs, I feel much the same way as I do about my country’s upcoming presidential election. It’s not so much that I’m wholeheartedly gung ho about the candidates involved, I’m just picking the lesser of two evils because it’s my obligation as a free person to participate in the process.
= )
I think you’re looking for a game that can never be produced. You come across as a bit jaded. Looking at Warhammer as simply an entertainment product it IS fun. Maybe not fun in the sense that you idyllically recall the first days playing your first MMO, but it has plenty of elements where it is fun and challenging and fresh. And as far as group-vs-group combat goes it really IS a step above most of the other MMOs out there.
@BrotherGrimm: It can and will be done, it’s just a matter of time. Looking at Warhammer as simply entertainment for me - and it’s not fun. It’s like watching CSI: or reading another Clive Clusser novel. Yes, Dirk Pitt will live.
@tenfoldhate: Well, I hope you’re going with Obama. Though, part of me wants McCain. Because if you’re going to burn a country to the ground, might as well do it right, right?
I hear you. I’ve had my stint as a game developer and I’ll just chime in that it’s hard work. I think the only way to do something really groundbreaking is to have almost no budget limits.
My problem with all of these MMO’s is that the designers are sticking to closely to the RPG mindset, to the point that DND4e is now a Pen and Paper MMO.
Think back to DND. What did your character do? He ground out levels to become more powerful. That was the mechanic. That mechanic fit perfectly into the computer world and was quickly co-opted into computer gaming.
How did RPGs fail? They lost that personal interaction that the player’s had with the world through the DM. That can’t be simulated. The world reacted to players (they were the focus as you said) because there was a live person driving the action. You as a player didn’t “feel” the grind because you were caught up in the story or getting your new shiny thing. You also didnt play 6 hours a day, 4 days a week.
Computers sped up the RPG grind curve so that it became noticeable for what it was.
My major gripe with WAR? Crafting. It’s terrible.
I 100% disagree with this article. Funny how you seem to plead for support with a “Anyone else feel unimpressed and unmotivated to play? Do tell”.
Well, sorry for raining on your parade, but here I am, having a ton of fun with the game. And yes, skill matters, and it’s the skill to work with your realm-mates better than the opposite faction. That doesn’t include just twitchy skills (go play a flight simulator from the Il-2 series for plenty twitch), but also social skills.
The game definately feels epic, as I doubt there isn’t much that can be more epic as sieging keeps against tens of human controlled enemies (or defending them, maybe in 15 against 50).
You simply want a free for all pkill sandbox game, like all the sandbox fanatics out there, that will feel personally insulted for the fact that they can’t gank everyone in sight. Sorry for you, but the fact that Warhammer online doesn’t fit your PERSONAL vision of what a MMORPG should be, doesn’t lower it’s (Very high, even if near-perfection will come with time, like for every game in this genre) quality, nor means it lacks creative vision. Actually I don’t remember a MMORPG with a better creative vision and overall art direction than what warhammer online has. And i played basically them all.
If you can’t feel involved in your faction, it’s probably your problem, not the game’s. So you don’t feel like an hero? Maybe you just weren’t born to be one.
Even though I respect your opinion I can’t seem to ignore the fact that your complaints read more like a generic “I hate MMO’s” rant than a WAR specific snipe. Perhaps you put WAR in the header to attract more fodder to the discussion since WAR is still in the honeymoon phase of its life and it’s fanboys would be easy pickings.
MMO’s have always promised a world where you live as a hero and do amazing things . . . but the first time you camp a spawn point next to a dozen other fools or get hit by a gank squad you quickly realize that your heroics couldn’t get you laid in a Blind White Wolf LARP Valentine’s Day Con.
What’s so honest about Team Fortress 2, WAR, Party Poker, and other competitive online games is that they can offer you some ‘real’ heroic moments. Overcoming human opponents will always be infinitely more challenging and interesting than ‘beating’ a well crafted single player game (even if it’s embedded in an MMO).
Maybe you should get off your high horse and just try to enjoy the GAME and not be bogged down with your MMO baggage.
L1H quoted for truth.
@L1H: Yep, I agree. I used WAR because it’s the last game I played - call it the manifestation of discontent. It’s true most of the stuff I harp on about WAR can be said for most other MMO’s. I know it was wrong to expect WAR to revolutionize, but that doesn’t change the fact that I just couldn’t bring myself to play it anymore. And this is why. Hence the article.
Bah, it’s late, I’m outta here.
I could not agree with this article more. The age of MMO mediocrity is upon us.
War is a pretty poor MMO - it gets old and boring very fast - If you are a WOW player I can understand it might be attractive but there are much better MMO’s out there. Guild Wars, Conan and Lotro are far better.
Although I mostly enjoy PvE, Lotro’s PvP (if you have a top end rig to run it) is far better than War
New blood here. I respect what you said, and have no problems with your comments. I’m enjoying the game quit a lot, but I admit it hasn’t captured me like the original EQ did. In fact of all the MMOs I’ve played, I’d say EQ, Planetside, & CoH were the only games where I was completely bowled over by the experience.
I would like one clarification on your perspective though. When you were trying out WAR, were you playing on a well populated server? I think moreso than any other traditional MMO (except Planetside) WAR really depends on having lots of players around to be fun. You need to have lots of opposing faction guys queue’d up for scenarios & roaming the RvR lakes to have fun there, and you need lots of friendlies around to really have fun in the PQs. I find myself truly having a blast on the nights when I get into a large warband taking over keeps that are defended, or doing PQs. But on nights when nobody is around, I basically just queue up scenarios and wander feeling pretty much like you described, looking at stuff and saying ‘meh’.
I just wonder if some part of your disdain is based on the fact that you were playing on an underpopulated faction on a low population server. This game is hugely dependant on having a large and balanced population I think.
Exactly how much Fun would a game be If Altdorf could only be burned down Once? How much fun would PVP be if there wasnt ATLEAST a “rank” to show your achievments? Imagine only having one life.
From the sound of it, you want a game made with Shapes never before seen! Colors never before used! and a combat system that is so UNvideogame-like that a mouse and keyboard will not suffice!
But what your forgetting is it IS a video game. Yes, they didnt have to use Typical Races with typical models, but a rose by any other name smells just as sweet. a 3 second cast of shadow warrior shooting a bow… or a 3 second cast of a clown throwing a bannana! the novelty would ware off. So instead they stuck with the Typical races which have prooven themselves worthy already.
Sure the environment is not incredibly impresive, but neither is the scenery outside my house.
I could give thousands of other examples, but the point remainds the same. There is nothing wrong with the game, there is something wrong with you
But i Digress!!!! its a video game, it is Ment to give you enjoyment even if that enjoyment comes in 5-60 minute long intervals. Its only when you expect a game to be never ending, and to take up a LARGE majority of your Time, that it falls short.
So my suggestion is to not expect so much. Go outside Smell the roses. and please, limit your Gameplaying, and Article writing ; to an hour a day. maximum.
I don’t think it’s MMO burnout. I think it’s the same, diku clone, been there, done that gameplay that have caused us 30something gamers to lose interest so quickly.
I’d love to disagree and argue for Warhammer, I’ve come to the same conclusion and quit.
Age of Conan was a joke due to bugs, but at least tried to do new things and had an evolution in graphics and gameplay, even if in the longrun they weren’t good.
War is fresh, but I expect most to leave due to the fact it’s not evolutionary, new, or different at all. It’s the same stereotypes MMO we’ve been playing since Everquest, and not even a polished good one with great eye candy.
The game is boring, repetitive, and the PVP doesn’t do enough to differentiate the game and make it worth a long term, or even short term time investment.
@BoB: Thanks for the marvelous insights. You should be a guidance counselor! Surely, hundreds if not thousands of young people need this wisdom as well. /sarcasm off.
You’re thinking inside the box. Get this: What if Altdorf could *really* be captured? As in, Destruction moves in and occupies it, NPC’s and ever… for good. Of course, Order could mount a city retake. Oh, and when/if they do capture their city back, they have to rebuild it. That’s if Destruction wasn’t too busy planting flowers or moaning to themselves.
That’s a simple solution that could have been easily included if there had actually been a gathering/crafting city. And, the thing is, a city doesn’t *have* to be rebuilt - make it difficult. Just because its not rebuilt doesn’t mean it can’t function. Have buildings burned down and rubble lying everywhere. It’d make Destruction feel like they’ve done something, and most importantly, it would attach Order to the city and make them actually care about it.
But hey, that’s just an idea coming from an arm-chair referee. What the hell do I know?
great ideas & perception and nice writing. and the right time to raise the voice. we are in a situation where marketing (the bad guys with sunglasses, money and vampire teeth) owns the mmo market. i cancelled aoc because it grew stale. i wont start with war because its obvious that its the same unimaginative applepie like the last x mmos before it. i just continue with tabula rasa because its halfway (at least it tries) innovative and because i reached end level long ago. so there is no need to grind as battle droid (nice metaphor) through leveling again. i will just pop in when new stuff is available. and thank god there is some time between patches that leave me the freedom (yes) of reading a good book, watching a nice movie, play some D&D… or play a not-so-massive game that tells a story that matters or pumps some nice adrenaline into my veins.
i wont join the crowd until they made a game that is NOT a 9 to 5 daytime job cloaked as entertainment. remember: all we do while playing is manipulating pixels (->lightpins) on a screen.
if its burnout try atlantica online free beta
it might as well be crap but with its turnbased combat and servers actually full of people it kept me occupied at least a weekend…
Old MMO players are like drug users, always chasing that initial rush but doomed never to feel the same way as the first time.
@Daedren: Not to get political on a gaming forum, but rest easy–I’m going for your first guess. : )
The big leap that I think MMO Veterans want, that every MMO producer is afraid to take, is the ability to actually win the game. To have a set up where there are sides, and a side can win, and when it does, that server is over, and starts up anew, with all new toons.
If you build a game around that, then everything else we complain about will also get fixed. In order for you to be able to win a server, unless it is designed IMO stupidly, you will be able to change things on the server. Think Warhammer but if you conquer the capital - you actually win.
This will give the game meaning. And all of the problems inherent to this approach - and there are many - can be solved. Giving new players a LOT of information about the current server states can help steer people to want they want (i.e. don’t roll up a lvl 1 toon on a server where one side is 95% close to winning unless you know exactly what you are doing).
And the winning side should have a cool prize. The best prize in my mind would be a whole new PvE server to play on that only the winning side can go to - the Hero server. This server would be super tough - pursposely set up to demand, and reward, expert team based and large group coordinated play. Think of a world where Sauron won Middle Earth, and the Heroes get sent in on a small beachhead outpost and a story plays out that you can actually win. And while the players are busy winning that story, the dev team is busy making the NEXT hero server with a whole new different story so that you always have something brand new coming down the pike for your playerbase.
A Tale in the Desert has been doing something similar to this in a non-combat MMO way for years now. The concepts are their and proven at this point - it can be made to work.
And when people whine that they want to play on the cool Hero server but can’t get on a winning side, don’t cave and let them in. Make it something that is desirable that you have the EARN. Do this with the conviction that the few you lose will be more than made up by the many who stay to play your game because they have a goal - and keep working on new stories so the goals stay new.
If you can pull that off, that will be the next big leap I am convinced of it.
Hello Daedren.
I heartfully agree with your opinion, only that your opinion is what I’m currently feeling with WoW (I don’t intend to pick warhammer up).
There actually is a MMO that I am (mildly) anticipating, called “Citadel of Sorcery”. (http://www.citadelofsorcery.com/)
Upsides:
-Every player gets a personal story, that can change according to the players’ actions.
-Every player gets to play his own unique quests, automatically generated to match the player’s story.
-Consequences of actions are “true”. (Any NPC that you kill… stays dead.)
Downsides:
-Still another fantasy-based universe, albeit without elves nor dwarves.
-Shouldn’t be out before a few years, by my estimation. If it is out at all.
-Whenever you’re on a quest, you’re instantiated (so that other players cannot interfere in your story without your consent)
Oh well. Every time I read the promotional Q&A of this game, I have an urge to marry the developers.
@BoB: Thanks for the marvelous insights. You should be a guidance counselor! Surely, hundreds if not thousands of young people need this wisdom as well. /sarcasm off.
You’re thinking inside the box. Get this: What if Altdorf could *really* be captured? As in, Destruction moves in and occupies it, NPC’s and ever… for good. Of course, Order could mount a city retake. Oh, and when/if they do capture their city back, they have to rebuild it. That’s if Destruction wasn’t too busy planting flowers or moaning to themselves.
That’s a simple solution that could have been easily included if there had actually been a gathering/crafting city. And, the thing is, a city doesn’t *have* to be rebuilt - make it difficult. Just because its not rebuilt doesn’t mean it can’t function. Have buildings burned down and rubble lying everywhere. It’d make Destruction feel like they’ve done something, and most importantly, it would attach Order to the city and make them actually care about it.
But hey, that’s just an idea coming from an arm-chair referee. What the hell do I know?
@Daedren
Your trying to incredibly hard to think outside the box.
First things first. the game comes in a box. Secondly.
What if we could could actualy use ROCKET thrusteres, built by the dwarf egineers ofcourse, to lift aldtdorf off the ground so it could avoid enemy attack
What if we could go to the edge of the world, shift the tectonic plates, and create earthquakes to Further ease the difficulty in taking down an entire city?
What if we could we could just nuke their city?
what if the pvp System was actualy ran by voice commands?
What if we could actualy put on a virtual suit and be INSIDE THE GAME!
Case and point. need i say more? what if what if what if?
There is absolutly no reasonable to create the “city take over” system better than they have.
-First off, if you could actualy destroy their city or take it and keep it, the UNBALANCED faction differences would present an incredibly clear and large advantage for the side with the biggest population. They could controll it for weeks.. maybe months on end. And everyone on the otherside would have nowhere to go, and would eventualy end up extremely Gimped as the enemys power would keep increasing (renown gear, ability to bring more players into the city, etc etc).
let me give you an example In the battlegroup shadowburn in WoW. The alliance began losing. As a result Horde gained honor… faster. Naturaly they used this honor to get Arena gear. Since they had better gear, they continuted to win. They win so much, That while Horde get about 1 epic peice a day. Alliance get about one every week or more. Naturaly becuase the horde have better gear Shadowburn is left with a WIN rate of about 1:10. Its a vicious circle
Now imagine how Amplified a situation liek that would be if the game had incorperated what your suggesting.
(please disregard my grammer and spelling)
Anyways i think you and the Author of this article are missing the point. people dont HATE COD4 becuase there are so many other shooting games out there. Nor do they sit around WISHING it had a whole bunch of unreasonable or random features(”Man why cant i throw my gun at their face?” “when i look down why can i see my legs” “why are there bullets coming out of my GUN? every OTHER FPS already did that” “Why am i human? other games use humans”
Saying that this game is un innovative is just as rediuclous as saying that ALL video games are Un-innovative becuase they still ALL run on moniters. WTF where are my DREAM GAMES!
anyways. the game is fine, good, great EVEN. Sure i would rather have a Modern or even futuristic MMORPG that took place in say! a city or urban areas. However…
You dont order beef, and then exlaim HOW VEGETARIAN YOU ARE! yays!
You bought a medevil fantasy mmorpg based on warhammer lore that included dwarfs elves goblins etc. Rve combat, and keep sieges.
IF you do not LIKE those things. do not BUY the game. and do not Expect it to have a whole bunch of features that it never claimed to have had in the first place?
@Daedren
Your trying to incredibly hard to think outside the box.
First things first. the game comes in a box. Secondly.
What if we could could actualy use ROCKET thrusteres, built by the dwarf egineers ofcourse, to lift aldtdorf off the ground so it could avoid enemy attack
What if we could go to the edge of the world, shift the tectonic plates, and create earthquakes to Further ease the difficulty in taking down an entire city?
What if we could we could just nuke their city?
what if the pvp System was actualy ran by voice commands?
What if we could actualy put on a virtual suit and be INSIDE THE GAME!
Case and point. need i say more? what if what if what if?
There is absolutly no reasonable to create the “city take over” system better than they have.
-First off, if you could actualy destroy their city or take it and keep it, the UNBALANCED faction differences would present an incredibly clear and large advantage for the side with the biggest population. They could controll it for weeks.. maybe months on end. And everyone on the otherside would have nowhere to go, and would eventualy end up extremely Gimped as the enemys power would keep increasing (renown gear, ability to bring more players into the city, etc etc).
let me give you an example In the battlegroup shadowburn in WoW. The alliance began losing. As a result Horde gained honor… faster. Naturaly they used this honor to get Arena gear. Since they had better gear, they continuted to win. They win so much, That while Horde get about 1 epic peice a day. Alliance get about one every week or more. Naturaly becuase the horde have better gear Shadowburn is left with a WIN rate of about 1:10. Its a vicious circle
Now imagine how Amplified a situation liek that would be if the game had incorperated what your suggesting.
(please disregard my grammer and spelling)
Anyways i think you and the Author of this article are missing the point. people dont HATE COD4 becuase there are so many other shooting games out there. Nor do they sit around WISHING it had a whole bunch of unreasonable or random features(”Man why cant i throw my gun at their face?” “when i look down why can i see my legs” “why are there bullets coming out of my GUN? every OTHER FPS already did that” “Why am i human? other games use humans”
Saying that this game is un innovative is just as rediuclous as saying that ALL video games are Un-innovative becuase they still ALL run on moniters. WTF where are my DREAM GAMES!
anyways. the game is fine, good, great EVEN. Sure i would rather have a Modern or even futuristic MMORPG that took place in say! a city or urban areas. However…
You dont order beef, and then exlaim HOW VEGETARIAN YOU ARE! yays!
You bought a medevil fantasy mmorpg based on warhammer lore that included dwarfs elves goblins etc. Rve combat, and keep sieges.
IF you do not LIKE those things. do not BUY the game. and do not Expect it to have a whole bunch of features that it never claimed to have had in the first place?
[...] the Public Quests in Warhammer Online are fundamentally antisocial. Meanwhile, R1ftgaming discusses the inevitable Meh of Warhammer Online. The former is amusingly anal analysis, but fun. The latter is a touch flame-baity, I suspect, with [...]
“This thought especially weighs down upcoming releases like Darkfall which not only embraces the “shoot me in the head it’s another high fantasy MMO” aspect but also seem to have a PVP formula similar to Shadowbane and Age of Conan.”
Darkfall like Age of Conan? Whoa. You have a mind-boggling lack of understanding about the mechanics of MMOs. Have you even read anything about the design? It’s absolutely nothing like AoC/WoW/WAR. It has FFA-PvP, full loot, death penalties, no safe zones, no instances, houses, ships, the list goes on and on. It’s almost 3D Ultima Online.
@Darx: I’m quite aware of the proposed game mechanics of Darkfall. You should look up the word “similar”. Darkfall is *similar* to Age of Conan in that it’s open, FFA PVP and not faction based.
However, I do thank you for bringing in your mind-boggling understanding of MMO’s, we’re all grateful for your presence.
@BoB / Dan S: I have no idea what either of you two are on about, sorry. ;P
I’ve just looked through this, and if you substitute Warhammer Online for ‘World of Warcraft’ and ‘WoW’ for ‘Everquest’ you’d have an interesting, if late, point.
As it is, you’re dead wrong, if you find WAR boring I can only imagine the turgidness that it WoW would kill you on contact.
But I’m no troll, I’m a reasonable person, so I’ll give you this, your point about the purposeless of the war itself is an apt one. Putting the conflict front and centre as WAR does, rather than having it fade into the background like WoW, leaves it vulnerable to the same fate as Planetside, surely the only game ever to list existential ennui as one of the chief causes of it’s demise.
@Dante: True enough that it can be applied to most games on the market. I’m not sure why people think I like WoW - I hate it. It’s a life sucking, stale game that reinforces a treadmill progression system.
Not sure what I’m “dead wrong” about. Especially since what I said was my opinion. Hard to find objective truth there anyway.
“shoot me in the head it’s another high fantasy MMO” aspect but also seem to have a PVP formula similar to Shadowbane and Age of Conan.
————————
Do you have any idea what you’re talking about? How much have you even researched of DF? The game is many years in the making with the aspects of UO, Age of Chivalry, EQ, and Shadowbane injected with steroids. It’s a COMPLETELY free world. It’s something original for once. The only thing it could possibly be called a clone of is UO, but with a hundred more things.
“Darkfall is *similar* to Age of Conan in that it’s open”
I don’t know how you can call Age of Conan “open”. It was one of the most linear MMO’s I’ve seen to date; that is part of the reason I stopped playing it. Darkfall promises more of a sandbox/open MMO than anything else out there. It should also have one of the largest worlds in MMO’s out today. Developers have stated that it will take 8 hours to travel from the one shore of the continent to the other shore.
The developers of Darkfall also promise to have player skill the single most important factor in fights. It does this in such ways as forcing all projectiles and spells to be aimed. The only MMO that I know of that has done that is Planetside.
The developers have stated the combat in the game is very similar to Mount and Blade. Try playing it and then tell me that player skill isn’t the most important aspect of combat.
Try watching the 17 minute video they just released and you will clearly see what I am talking about. I know it’s a 600+ meg download but it’s well worth watching.
http://media.darkfallonline.com/Darkfall_gameplay_trailer.zip
“@Darx: I’m quite aware of the proposed game mechanics of Darkfall. You should look up the word “similar”. Darkfall is *similar* to Age of Conan in that it’s open, FFA PVP and not faction based.”
Heh. It’s similar because it has PvP? Perhaps you think it’s similar because it has swords too. Have you ever played a full-loot MMO before?
If you think WoW/WAR is similar to Darkfall/Ultima Online then you really have no buisiness reviewing MMORPGs.
@Darx/hwick: You guys are fucking killing me. I can’t tell if you’re serious or just taking the piss out of me.
Allow me to clarify myself, monosyllabic style if I have to.
Age of Conan, on PVP servers, lets you freely attack anyone. This is what I consider “non faction based PVP”. It’s similar, note the word similar here, to Ultima Online and Shadowbane in this aspect. I hate Age of Conan and its shitty PVP system as much as the next guy, and I only included it because most of my readers are familiar with it, as opposed to Ultima Online, where us select few veterans can reminisce and talk about the good ol’ days.
Anyway, we can drop Conan as a whole from the discussion as I’ll agree it’s not discussion worthy. So, commence with the comparisons of Darkfall being like UO, or SB, or Lineage, or whatever.
I’m all for a UO-esque type PVP game. Keep in mind, though, that game hype and “game features” often don’t translate into actual gameplay. I’m skeptical is all. And damn it, I think everyone has a right to be skeptical with the amount of garbage spewing out of the industry.
@Daedrans last response on Oct 16th 2008 9:50am.
I understand where you are coming from Daedran, I can read your article and basically tell people I wrote it because Ive been telling my friends and fellow past MMO guildies the same shit. Why dedicate my time all over again for a game that is going to restrict me at the end of the grind and have no real sense of a reward system implemented?
You have all the rights to be skeptical. I began following DF in early 06 after my WoW binge(i was a warcraft fan 1-3). I was super excited and got everyone I knew excited and the game delayed delayed delayed… I started not giving a shit but at the same time I searched and searched for that REAL TRUE MMO feeling that I got playing Asherons Call Darktide(+DAOC) and I was left with upset after upset. If you spend some real time on DF’s website, youll see that it really has alot to offer. We’ve heard promises in the past and yes, were skeptical. But when I read old IRC transcripts and heard devs speak on the forums. They know this too. They know that they are implementing alot of stuff and that they have a small team that has grown over the past 6 years but they stayed true to their early statement of not releasing a game that does not have the features that they want to implement(the devs are original gamers from greece that played UO and Tasos, the lead developer worked with turbine and microsoft on Asherons Call). They have been so picky with a publisher in the past year alone because they dont want to give a percentage of their game rights that they worked so hard on to some company that may want to WoWafy it to increase the consumer base. And with the current situation of Dark and light being a disaster, AOC which I thought was pretty close to DF’s vision being a HUGE disaster, and WAR now selling out to the business model of consumer based gamers that enjoyed WoW… All we really have is DFO until I see a real company show us otherwise. Like Blizzard for example, they now have millions. They should give back to the hardcore base that has supported them from day 1 and create a completely revamped new, fresh, clean, awesomeness of a sandbox MMO like DF except with the quality of the Blizzard logo behind it. I bet they can make it in less than 2 years with they amount of funding they now have.
Anyways, thats my 2 cents, really good article btw. You dont really have to follow DF, judge it based on when its released.. A little hope never hurt anyone either.. =)
-Scott
Daedren, welcome to the club of “sick-n-tired of mainstream MMORPG players”. I’ll put you on hold since you insist not to sit by the Darkfall fans on their big and enthusiastic table, care for a drink while you wait for that other next big thing?
When reading this article, I was thinking to my self if when you’d mention of Darkfall and how it would be everything you’ve dreamed about. You ended up not and surprised me - either due to a lack of knowledge (maybe haven’t really read anything about the game from their website), or you know something Darkfall fans don’t know about the game (perhaps you have an inside information that it’s not gonna realize anything they’ve been demonstrating on their video). Or perhaps, you’re sick of its “Ron Paul like fans”, and maybe distracted by its video which lacks the best of what Darkfall has to offer - the gameplay. They “promise” a really immersive gameplay we’ve been waiting for since UO (and somewhat a little SWG).
I and many others have figured out the problem with the current MMORPGs long before WAR, or even AoC came. Heck, I’ve seen the talent tree in pre-release AoC update and said “there you go, another dream failed for copying WoW”. Of course many other tragedies followed that in the case of AoC. I had no doubt with WAR ending up to be boring. They’ve claimed to be the “original WoW” in the first place; same everything done better? Not really, even if so; not interested!
You have an obvious lack of knowledge about Darkfall, otherwise you’d understand why some of its fans are offended when you try to compare Darkfall with anything but UO. You claim to be an ol’ timer UO player. Well, then you’d know better how DFO features are “promising” that not only it will give many things we ol’ timers have been craving for years since its AoS patch, but so much more. By much more, I mean many more revolutionary features that you’d only see in a sandbox game - thing that will enhance free game play, and immerse you into it.
Allow me to demonstrate one thing video did not - which is related to your comment about “Darkfall, battles and zerg”; an elite/disciplined PvP group of 40, with 20 heavy armored melee in front line, 10 archers/mages right behind them, and 10 healers at the very last line - all tightly packed and facing a bottleneck entrance of a cave, or a castle gate. Darkfall “promises” that this group will survive against an undisciplined zerg of 100-200 player force. With manual aiming/swings, friendly fire and enemy healing, it will be possible, do I need to remind that players won’t be able to pass through other characters? That is just the combat side of the game.
Please ignore the harm done to the game by its bad publicity over the years, by its lack of updates/information given out and its over-excited fan base.
Everything you seem to crave for is not a burn-out. Someone also mentioned that “your problem is the ol’ timer problem who happened to play UO and can’t forget those good ol’ days - and that you have to move on”. He was right about the diagnosis, but not the treatment. Darkfall offers that excitement you got from that good ol’ game.
@Galaturc: Thanks for the great post. Ok, I admit: you’ve piqued my interest about reexamining Darkfall. First, let me explain why I’ve been put off - three reasons:
1. The Vaporware thing. It’s the Duke Nukem of MMO’s. I’m glad to hear it finally might be ready to play in the near future. We can discount this now.
2. Horizons. This is a big one. If you followed Horizons from start to its unfortunate finish, it went something like this: “Hi, We’re Horizons. Look at these tons of revolutionary features!” — Players got excited. The game was hyped. Beta and release showed that a good portion of these “features” never made the game. The game failed.
3. Fantasy. Swords. Magic. *yawn*
I guess a 4th could be the so-so preview videos I’ve seen. DF looked like a slightly improved version of EQ/AC. Hey, I’m all for gameplay. Hell, I guess if I could get a slightly improved version of DAoC with UO game mechanics I’d be there in a second.
So, that was why I’m skeptical. I’ll check it out though. I promise, I’ll give it a chance. I’ll get over the fantasy thing. If they can do a new version of UO (that’s not Lineage or anything like it) then it *does* have potential.
– Daedren
@Scott: Thanks for your comment as well. Glad to have attracted the DF fans over here, in any case. Maybe I’ll write on it soon.
Draeden I think you were expecting too much from WAR. It sounds like you want a virtual world with a combat facility enabled, not an MMORPG as we know it.
So…what do people want from MMORPGs?
For example, I want enjoyable group pvp without having to grind lots of pve in order to level up. I want to log on, get into a group with my friends, and then go and fight as a properly functioning team against another group of people of similar level, skill and organisation (maybe just a little bit less good that we are). I also want a premade set-up to base the combat around so I can just join a side (Order or Destruction) instead of having to make it up as I go along by inventing wars with other guilds. Also, it doesn’t matter if I am playing a scenario, or taking a keep that will just get taken back 15 minutes after we leave the area. At the end of the night I’ve had fun.
Unlike some MMORPGs out there, WAR provides what I want. I will keep playing it until it doesn’t.
In order to evaluate WAR as a game the question is - are the player base more like Draeden in what they want, or are they more like me? If the former, then every single MMORPG is a failure.
If they are more like me in their requirements, then WAR is a success…so far, at least.
P.S. The only problem with WAR is if I end up playing vs zergs or disorganised pugs in open rvr a lot in T4. I might get bored if that happens too often.
Daedren, I can hardly agree with you more. So far, I’ve found but two MMOs that satisfy some (though, sadly, not all) of the criteria you mention. Perhaps they can do something for you:
Darkwind
Turn-based car combat in a post-apocalyptic setting. Very, very different. Semi-dynamic campaign world, different approach to characters, only one developer who listens closely to player feedback, and the most jovial community I’ve ever come across. The combat is most definitively skill-based, though the complicated physics engine that powers the turn-based fighting might not appear so at first or second or third glance.
Vendetta Online
The Vendetta Online wikipedia page says it best. Vendetta Online is a purely skill-based (only your own reflexes and equipment come into play) dynamic, virtual world, with three dedicated devs who, just like the Darkwind dev above, communicates directly with the players, and a different approach to PvP. The community is also the second most jovial and cordial, after the Darkwind community.
Great article, made me realise for myself why I’ve been unable to get into any MMO game since I quit WoW. Sure, it wasn’t my first MMO, my first was probably from playing Furcadia years ago, on the RP areas that was actually FUN for me, even though it was pretty much a graphical chat.
I haven’t tried WAR, and from what you’ve said I wouldn’t be playing it long even if i did try it.
I’d suggest checking out Darkfall, its the only game I’m interested in playing, between rounds of Age of Chivalry to pass the time.
One thing that makes Darkfall stand out is its skill-based system. No levels. Think of combat similar to Mount&Blade or Age of Chivalry. Also, its full loot! Death is meaningful again!!
If nothing else, it’ll pass a few weeks..
[...] thing that surprised me in my “Inevitable “Meh” of Warhammer Online” piece was the agreement I got. I had expected the vehement fanboys to arrive in mass and [...]
These were honest comments from the author but I had to laugh when as a veteran player he complained that MMORPGs don’t have have enough innovation compared to other genres. I laughed because I’ve heard that complaint from hardcore MMORPGs veterans all time.
There was a MMORPG that came out a few years ago that wasn’t really that innovative. But it had made enough radical changes to completely alter the market landscape and it brought in more players into MMORPG genre than every game before it combined.
And it still is the veteran MMORPG players who are the first ones to whine and complain about WoW and what a shallow, poor-designed game it is.
Vetern players don’t really want innovation. They want the same tedious, timesink, punishing mechanics that remind them of the ‘good old days’ of UO and EQ and rewards people who treat a game like a second job. Posts by the author suggesting a capital should be permanently captured are just proof of that.
Real innovation in MMORPGs? How about a MMORPG *without* any Crafting or economy? Or itemization that reflects skill rather than grinding? Or customization where veteran characters *don’t* get to strut their e-peens?
Real innovation requires change and that’s the one thing that makes veteran MMORPG players scream. Just look at all the screaming caused by the genre changes from WoW which wasn’t even that innovative. A truly innovative game would leave veteran MMORPG players behind and not bother looking back.
You nailed it with the word Meh. WARs RvR is fantastic (at least Scenario RvR, open world does not exist), but the game is so lackluster in other areas it just does not feel like a complete game to me. I think that WARs biggest weakness is the bland PvE. I’m not talking about PQs, just PvE in general. WAR is just missing that something that makes me want to log in everynight. Not a good thing when the game your playing is an MMO.
Thanks for the useful info. It’s so interesting
Leave your response!
game design »
The Chauvinistic Virtual World
It’s hard to try and delve into a subject as controversial as chauvinism or sexism without pissing a lot of people off almost immediately. I guess a good place to start is why I would …
interviews »
Hell Froze Over: An Interview with Funcom’s Erling Ellingsen
Hi, I’m Daedren. You might remember me from other interviews like “Mark Jacobs: He Didn’t Call Me Back” and “Richard Garriott: Corp Por or In Vas Mani?” I write this not with a gun to …
MMO »
So Long, and Thanks for All the Rad-X
It’s with a heavy heart that I announce the imminent demise of a beloved game company: one that brought us Fallout 1 & 2, Earthworm Jim and Descent. While their recent accomplishments are nothing more …
Rants »
Daedren’s Guide to Living with Deathknights
I don’t like writing about Warcraft. I consider the game unchallenging, frightfully unimaginative and terribly addicting - but in the same time, I’m drawn to it for its familiarity. It’s the familiar and user friendly …
Reviews »
Review: Darkfall Beta
Darkfall Online is a game that is not for everyone. The nature of the game is such that you will either love it or absolutely hate it depending on your playstyle. If you are a …
Tag Cloud
WP Cumulus Flash tag cloud by Roy Tanck requires Flash Player 9 or better.
Archives
Latest Articles
Related Posts
Random Posts
Latest Video Post
Recent Comments
Most Commented
Most Popular